5th Best Selling Sedan (with a caveat)

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 01/08/2019 at 10:54 • Filed to: None

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60

That’s a 20k+ delta between 4th place (Accord) and 5th place (Model 3). And say ing that your sales are better tha n the Sentra ain’t much to brag about. I wonder how badly Tesla sales have hurt Prius sales... q uite a lot, I’m guessing. Toyota definitely dropped the ball by letting those customers go elsewhere. Another thought: how many Tesla owners paid way more than they could really afford for their car, just because they had to have a Tesla?

Interesting to note that the Mustang shows up as a sedan in this chart (pretty sure the SAE definitely of sedan agrees with that).

Found it: The SAE defines such a vehicle as any two-door model with rear accommodation greater than or equal to 33 cubic feet (0.934 m³) in volume (includes legroom, shoulder room, and headroom)

http://164.100.133.129:81/econtent/Uploads/Session3%20Classification%20of%20Car%20by%20Body%20Style.pdf

CB > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 11:14

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I'm just boggled by the news that a Mustang is considered a sedan. Much like how pizza is a vegetable.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 11:19

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The whole thing with Model 3 numbers that confuses me, are these sales from the preorders years ago, or actual new sales? Kinda deceiving to say it has a high place on the sales chart when it is actually just that they were finally able to build the thing.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 11:20

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Nissan sold 50,000 Sentras?  That’s sad.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 01/08/2019 at 11:36

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What kind of car do you want?

Cheap. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 01/08/2019 at 11:38

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It has to be new sales. The preorders are just reservations (a spot in line). Nothing saying that they had to buy them once the time came. I’d love to see stats on what percentage of people who put down $1000 followed through to buy one. 

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 11:39

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

All of them?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 01/08/2019 at 11:48

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No, I’d guess at least half are traditional luxury buyers who had no trouble dropping the coin for one as a status purchase - trying to show that they’re wealthy or green or both.

I’m thinking of the Prius owners who had no business buying a $50k car but had to prove to everyone just how environmentally conscious they were, so now they’re just scraping by to make payments on their 84 month loan. 

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 11:55

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The EPA classing vehicles based on interior volume makes for some strange decisions. My Mini is logically placed in the minicompact category alongside direct competitors such as the Ferrari GTC4 Lusso, Aston Martin DB11, and Porsche 911.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 01/08/2019 at 11:55

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Fleets.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > CB 01/08/2019 at 11:56

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this is actually a fore shadow to the 2020 Mustang Crossc oupe.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 01/08/2019 at 12:00

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I;m more interested in if they are counting sales that have no yet been delivered.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 12:03

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First of all, a two-door car is not a sedan by all historic and commonly accepted practice with which I am familiar.

Second, The original status car to show you are green (and pretentiously so according to the memes) was a Prius.  Tesla has co-opted that meme for people who can afford it.  Tesla is the new pretentiousness leader. So, I’m guessing it cut pretty heavily into Prius sales.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/08/2019 at 12:05

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Haha - you should probably see if anyone’s willing to trade. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 12:06

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Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 12:18

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Lovely coupe

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/08/2019 at 12:23

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And the PT Cruiser is a light truck.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 12:24

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Interesting, I wonder what makes the Corolla sell so much better than the Sentra/Elantra/Cruze/Focus. I know I am not a good data point since when I drove all of those the Cruze/Focus were the only ones to standout as being a little nicer. I’d imagine advertisement efforts and just pricing and the fact that its Toyota make them sail ahead. Glad to see the Civic up there though since that blew all of the other cars out of the water when I rented one. It was pretty much tied with the Mazda 3 to me! Shame to not even see the 3 make the list =(. I have just realized that I had too many damn rentals last year, having driven ALL of them...

ranwhenparked > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 12:32

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There are such things as 2-door sedans, have been since the dawn of closed bodies on passenger cars. Generally, a coupe has a more steeply raked roofline, while a 2-door sedan has boxier or more upright proportions. It’s the same as the distinction between a stylish shooting brake and a lowly 2-door station wagon.

We're just not used to seeing them today, since they've been gone from the market for so long. IIRC, the last 2-door sedan sold in North America was the Volkswagen Beetle (aka VW Sedan) back in 2003. 

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 12:37

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I’m fairly certain that car’s name contains the phrase “2 door sedan”.

I believe it was between the 40s-60s there was such a thing as a 2 door sedan. By the 80s I think the nomenclature was gone.

It’s the kind of stuff that inspires Jack Baruth’s writing. 

jasmits > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 12:54

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I’m thrilled that the Model 3 is the new pretentious status car leader. What that means is when they start coming off lease in a few years and the next-gen Model 3 or whatever other new pretentious status car comes around values will absolutely plummet. While I have about zero desire to own an off-lease Prius or auto BMW 3-Series a depreciated comfortable, well appointed, quick and decent looking commuter that has decent chassis dynamics and uses no fuel sounds pretty okay to me.

nerd_racing > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 13:00

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BMW 2002 was a 2 door sedan.  

jasmits > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:03

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Saying your sales are better than the Sentra is actually huge. Tell me the last time a new car company posted sales rivaling any mainstream manufacturer, I’ll wait.

I’m not a Tesla fanboy and they certainly have some issues to work out, but I feel like enthusiasts are way to quick to crap on them. It’s been literally decades since a new company managed to get any mainstream penetration in the auto industry, what they’re doing is pretty incredible. And anyway, nobody seems to bat an eye if someone buys a new 3-Series for commuting and around town while having a family SUV or truck they use for long trips and stuff. I think the Model 3 looks way more fun than an F30 and if it’s for commuting and local trips anyway why not have it be electric?

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:09

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I put my $1000 down right after launch and I still really want one but a lot has changed since then and I’m really nervous about taking on a massive car loan. Maybe when the poverty spec models come out next year.  Although my wife who would probably drive it the most already finds them nauseatingly common.

functionoverfashion > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:24

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Relevant anecdote: A friend put an early deposit on a Model 3, to replace his 240k 2003 Jetta TDI wagon. He’s got a big solar array and he’s definitely in it for the efficiency, but not at all as a status symbol.

They called him and said, if you want one you can have one right now but the cost of the currently available model is WAY more than the $35k or whatever they lured people in with originally. They tried to create urgency because of the $7,500 tax credit that’s going away, but to get that, he would have had to buy the more expensive version... you get the idea.

He said no thanks, but h e’s really bummed. They returned his deposit, or at least they’re going to. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 13:25

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Definitely not a coupe.

TONS of room in that back seat. 

Chariotoflove > ranwhenparked 01/08/2019 at 13:26

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Okay. It’s just that m y whole life experience has taught me that coupe=2 door and sedan=4 door. So for instance, Sedan de Ville vs. Coupe de Ville:

I did find this article describing the definition of a sedan vs. coupe as depending on the volume of the rear compartment, just like davesaddiction c ites. But, I think that’s a silly distinction that isn’t adhered to (e.g:  the Cadillacs above), and   just like its author says, I find the use of the term “4-door coupe” being used these days to be stupid.

Another distinction that wikipedia lists is the presence of a B-pillar. That makes more sense to me because it’s a structural definition, not one based on subjective aesthetics . So I gue ss the Mustang fastback is a sedan by that definition, but I still think it’s stupid to call it that.

Anyway, whatever my opinion, I learned something today in looking all this up, so thanks!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2019 at 13:28

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The Toyota badge.

I’d love to see Mazda do better in sales, but at least the CX-5 is selling like hotcakes!

Chariotoflove > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 01/08/2019 at 13:29

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Its not terminology that I’m familiar with, but if that was in the name, okay.  I’m still not buying the Gran Coupe terminology BMW is selling.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:37

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I mean, if that’s the official definition, then so be it. But, then it’s not   adhered to. The Coupe de Ville had a huge back seat too. And what about the 6 -series BMW Gran Coupe? It has 4 doors and more than the defined back seat volume. So, that’s a sedan in spite of the name.

I think the distinction of whether or not a car has a B pillar could be a valid defining feature, but I don’t think it’s commonly recognized as such.

Chariotoflove > nerd_racing 01/08/2019 at 13:38

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It does kinda look like they just forgot the rear doors.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jasmits 01/08/2019 at 13:38

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I should have worded it differently. I wasn’ t saying 5th place on this list isn’t an impressive achievement for Tesla; I’m just saying the Sentra’s not a fantastic car. Will be interesting to see what the year after year sales are for the Model 3 over the next several years. It’s worth noting that this is a $50k car stacked up against $20-40k cars, so that’s significant.

I think that Tesla is really hurting BMW sedan sales more that anything else, because - you’re right - it’s a great solution for a luxury buyer who needs a dedicated commuter car. We’ll see if they can get prices down to a point where it’s a true competitor to the Camry/Accord.

I had my doubts about Tesla, but it appears that they’re going to make it and become a “real” car company that will be around for some time. Definitely something for Musk and everyone there to be very proud of.

Chariotoflove > jasmits 01/08/2019 at 13:39

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That works for me too.  While I’d never drive a Prius, I’d happily daily a Tesla.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > functionoverfashion 01/08/2019 at 13:42

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I’m guessing there’s quite a few stories like his.

Any clue what his cost (minus the $7500) would have been? I’m guessing still like $45k.

They’re going to? No reason for that not to be an immediate transaction.

facw > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 13:46

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Toyota dragged their feet way too long on a plug-in Prius. It’s a lot easier to tell people they are being green if you can say that for many commutes they’ll never even need to use gas (though the Prius Prime only has a 25 mile electric range, if they could get that to 40, they’d have a better case). Even now they market it as a different vehicle, which seems weird. Does the extra power conversion circuitry for plugging in cost so much that they can’t make it standard?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 13:46

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That’s all just marketing.

That said, no way I’d call a Mustang a sedan.

jasmits > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:47

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Yeah it definitely is not in the correct category, entry level luxury or whatever they put the 3-Series and C-Class etc is where it belongs. T he Prius is a competitor , but that’s only because until recently the Prius didn’t really have a real upmarket alternative, they don’t really belong in the same class.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nerd_racing 01/08/2019 at 13:48

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Still is. Long live the 2002!

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:52

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Is there even another electric sedan for sale in the USDM? Sure, there’s weird hatchy things, but full on sedans?

functionoverfashion > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 13:52

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I bet you’re right. It was, yeah, right around $45k. He was thinking like, $28.5k - 30k when he frist made his deposit.

I only say “going to” because I didn’t ask if he actually got the money. I assume he did, that wasn’t intentional on my part. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jasmits 01/08/2019 at 14:00

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I’d guess if you look at what Model 3 owners had previously, half are coming from entry level luxury (mostly German), a quarter are coming from Prius, some had a Model S or X, and the rest are a mix. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/08/2019 at 14:03

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https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/08/2019 at 14:05

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Also, the Model 3 is a “ hatchy thing” .

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MiniGTI - now with XJ6 01/08/2019 at 14:07

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Don’t do it. Debt sucks. 

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 14:13

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Oh, I forgot the Clarity! Hyundai Ioniq exists as an EV I think too, but in extremely limited quantities.

Chariotoflove > facw 01/08/2019 at 14:15

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I do think they’ve fallen behind.

Sli ghtly related, on my return road trip, I passed a Prius that had a sign on back saying “keep back, storm chaser vehicle.”

jasmits > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 14:16

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In my experience working in tech in the pacific northwest(so two Tesla-heavy categories) it’s pretty much all over the board. Lots of people could afford entry level luxury but till Tesla there just weren’t any options that interested them enough. Like I have a coworker a good few bumps up from me at the company who came from(well, still has) a Tacoma. He has a lot of hobbies that a truck makes sense for and while he’d wanted and could afford something a bit comfier and sportier to commute in the Taco makes a fine commuter so it just wasn’t something he felt the need to spend the money on, but the combo of not needing to use any fuel on the commute and the general novelty of the ownership experience as a whole was enough for him to take his wallet out for a Model 3 . So they didn’t really steal a sale as he’ll probably always have a midsize pickup, they really created the sale.

facw > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 14:17

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Got to have those heavy batteries holding you down in a tornado.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jasmits 01/08/2019 at 14:20

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Good point - I’d love to know in how many cases the 3 is a 2nd or 3rd car, and in how many it’s the household’s only vehicle. 

Chariotoflove > facw 01/08/2019 at 14:24

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Ha!

jasmits > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 14:29

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I’d bet a pretty huge percentage are joining a truck or an SUV where the owner didn’t want a cheap commuter and couldn’t justify a nice commuter. But, then again I was up at Snoqualmie on Saturday(a little collection of ski areas an hour from Seattle) and saw a good number of Model 3s in the parking lot so my intuition could be way off.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > functionoverfashion 01/08/2019 at 16:13

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Same story with a friend of mine. Actually had 2 deposits – one for him and one for his dad. His dad was OK with and could afford the much more expensive car, so he went ahead and ordered it. Many, many months of delays later the car finally arrived severely late with a hole through its front bumper. To this day I’m not sure if it’s been fixed yet, the dad was irate and yelling at them on the phone on a weekly basis. Friend decided to just get his deposit back given that he doesn’t really need a new car, they were sick of all the back and forths and delays on the first car, and the specs available are still significantly costlier than the $35k price they promised.

He’s still rooting for them and is hoping to get a Model Y when it comes out, and hopefully a lot of this mess will be more ironed out by then. Nothing against them and would be great if they succeeded, but I just want to tune out the arrogance from Musk, and the constant nauseating reactions of the fanbois. Just put your heads down, shut up, and figure shit out FFS. 

ranwhenparked > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 18:57

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Yeah, usually it was more of a style & price thing, at least post WWII. Back when automakers still offered a full range of body styles, a 2-door sedan would usually be the cheapest one with a back seat (the business coupe would usually be the bottom of the range); while the 2-door coupe would often be one of the priciest (convertibles and station wagons would often be higher). 

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 19:25

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And I’m guessing it also cuts into BMW 3-series sales...

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/bmw-3-series-sales-figures/

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/08/2019 at 19:26

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Right. I’m currently enjoying being debt free except my house and having two newish cars (and the Jag).  VW was paid off last summer. 

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/08/2019 at 19:31

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Probably.  The perceived cachet does overlap.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2019 at 19:31

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I’ve driven recent Corollas and Elantras. The Corolla felt more polished.

Also the Corolla has a long track record of top notch quality and durability.

And I’ve know a few Elantra owners with some persistent check engine light issues.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 01/08/2019 at 19:36

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Personally I think something like the Model S and the Model 3 are the BEVs BMW should have built right from the start. The only change needed would be the look of the front ends.

The i8 is an interesting novelty and the i3... well apparently it drives nicely, but it just doesn’t have the right look for a BMW to my eyes.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/08/2019 at 19:39

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I think my opinion is probably silly since my main criteria for rating included: infotainment having easy to use bluetooth, engine real world power, serious negative points for any CVT, tossability/enaging turning of some sort, and visibility out of the vehicle. Seeing as I never saw how any of these survived beyond the week I had it and that I would never buy one anyways, it was hard to judge. Although after it all, I would buy a 3 or Civic if I needed basic transportation for sure. The GM offerings surprised me the most because the infotainment was probably the most reliable there. 

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/08/2019 at 19:47

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I guess it has to do with inertia from the long history with the ICE. Tesla seems to have been able to break with the past where established car companies with their vast resources couldn’t.

Nah, I don’t for the funny proportions of the i3 either.

functionoverfashion > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 01/08/2019 at 21:01

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I feel much the same. I drove a P90D probably 3 years ago now, it was amazing. I wanted to get one for my wife’s 100 mile round trip daily commute, if it weren’t for the cost. The 3 then seemed like a slam dunk and we nearly put down a deposit.

For sure, we wouldn’t be buying one at this point, for the same reasons. $45k isn’t $35k, for one.

I think what they’ve done is truly incredible, I just have to tune out the BS and give credit where credit is due. I have no idea if it’s true, but I also have to believe that their very presence in the market must be a driver behind all the other innovations coming from established manufacturers. All good for us consumers!